rule question

[jwe]

situation : man on 1st , no outs

ball is hit short to left field , runner goes halfway. batter hustles and is already standing on first when fielder gets to ball but drops it. outfielder gets pissed, throws ball to second to get the force but throws it over the head of 2b and goes out of play without touching anybody.

both runners are entitled to 2 bases from last touched. . runner gets third of course being halfway to second at time of throw, however batter was already chilling on first before fielder ever picked up the ball so he gets two bases from last touched. first of course.

so both players should be on third. can't be.

question: does the lead runner have priority over the batter and it's 3rd and 2b or does the behind runner have priority and push the lead runner home and batter gets third?

[phatneff]

No. If a runner is occupying a base at the time of the throw (last touch), that counts as the FIRST base that the runner gets. So, in this scenario, you are correct about the runner going to second, since he was not occupying a base, he gets two bases, ending on third. The guy on first gets first base (first) and then second base.

HOWEVER, this can get tricky here. If the runner going to second is actually on his way back to first (thinking the ball was caught for some reason) at the time of his last touch, he would only get second base because the first base he would be awarded is first base, since he was going back to it, and then the second base he would get is second. IN THIS INSTANCE, the runner who was standing on first can only remain there, as you can't push a runner ahead of you for this type of situation. The lead runner is the priority.

[jwe]

sorry neff i think your totally wrong on this one . this has been discussed many times and there is no such rule in baseball , softball or fastpitch about going back to the base counting against you . you were already safe at that base why would you be awarded it again. perfect example , what if you go half way turn around facing the 3b dugout and stop. your not going back or forward and stopped . not going to either base. also not looking or moving in the direction of either base , then what. the officaial rule does state 2 bases from the last you were safely at. that's not the question i had though . mine was about two guys having been safe at first at the time of the throw with one halfway to second

[Catalyst21]

Everyone likes to argue about balls going out of play and thinks it's "2 bases on a throw from the outfield". Any time a ball goes out of play on a throw, regardless of where it's thrown from, it's a 1+1 scenario. You get the base you're going to, plus one more. In this scenario, runner going to 2b at the time of the throw gets the base he's going to (2b) plus one more (3b). The runner on first would get second and third if there were no one else on base however he couldn't "push" the runner home to be awarded 3b in this scenario. This is the same way if you're retreating to a base, say in this scenario, the LF catches the ball, runner retreats toward 1b, LF then throws it out of play trying to double him up, the runner would get the base he's GOING TO at the time of the throw (1b) plus one more, 2b.

[phatneff]

Thank you very much, Catalyst!

JWE, would you like to recant?

[jwe]

yeah i would . repeating there is no rule in any ball whats so ever that says 1 plus 1 or the base your going to plus one. on top of that there has never been any rule about going back counting as one base .repeating again what if your stopped . your not going to either base. then what's your ruling . this is a big misconception believed by at least probably 80 percent of players and umps. another misconception is two bases from outfield and one from infield. that is no such rule . the officail rule is two bases from time of throw from anywhere on the field except for pitcher. example.: ball hit to short and he boots it like 37 times and runner is already standing on first when he finally picks it up. oblivious to the fact the runner was safe a minute ago throws it to first but says over 1st base and into the stands . runner gets third not second as most would think

[Catalyst21]

yeah i would . repeating there is no rule in any ball whats so ever that says 1 plus 1 or the base your going to plus one. on top of that there has never been any rule about going back counting as one base .repeating again what if your stopped . your not going to either base. then what's your ruling . this is a big misconception believed by at least probably 80 percent of players and umps. another misconception is two bases from outfield and one from infield. that is no such rule . the officail rule is two bases from time of throw from anywhere on the field except for pitcher. example.: ball hit to short and he boots it like 37 times and runner is already standing on first when he finally picks it up. oblivious to the fact the runner was safe a minute ago throws it to first but says over 1st base and into the stands . runner gets third not second as most would think

Taken from page 50 of the 2008 USSSA rulebook.........

D. A Base Runner returning to a base to retag a base on a fly ball caught and
thrown by a Fielder to any base. If the ball is thrown by a Fielder into the
restricted area, the Base Runner shall be awarded the base he must retouch, plus
one base. Since the Base Runner is required to regain the base he first occupied,
he is awarded that base and only one more.

EFFECT Sec. 9. D. If the Base Runner is in contact with the base, he will be awarded two
bases from the time of the throw. If he leaves the base too soon, he will be awarded the
base he must retouch plus one base. It may now become an APPEAL PLAY and the Base
Runner may be put out. The determining factor shall be whether the Base Runner had possession of the Base at the time of the throw.

E. A Base Runner returning to a base on a ground ball or any time Runners
are not required to retouch the bases; Runners are awarded two bases from the
last base occupied.

[phatneff]

Now I must say you are wrong again, JWE.

However, I am wrong about the base already being occupied when the runner is standing on it and that counting as one of his two bases.

We'll call it even.

[jwe]

o.k. i may be wrong then? is this different is asa compared to u-trip, cause i know a couple of years ago that wasn't the rule. they must have changed it

[RB44]

Taken from the Major League baseball rulebook:
"Rule 7.05(g) Comment: In certain circumstances it is impossible to award a runner two bases. Example: Runner on first. Batter hits fly to short right. Runner holds up between first and second and batter comes around first and pulls up behind him. Ball falls safely. Outfielder, in throwing to first, throws ball into stand.
APPROVED RULING: Since no runner, when the ball is dead, may advance beyond the base to which he is entitled, the runner originally on first base goes to third base and the batter is held at second base.

The ASA ruling and the official baseball ruling is two bases from the time of the throw. The base is the last on you attained at the time of the throw.

USSSA, I believe, has always changed the ruling to read the base you were going to, and not the base you had attained.

[jwe]

so i guess it's different now in u=trip compared to asa. maybe i'm back a few years . looks like at least i got one of the associations right

[Catalyst21]

so i guess it's different now in u=trip compared to asa. maybe i'm back a few years . looks like at least i got one of the associations right

Utrip and ASA have some differences in baserunning rules. I don't know about the situation we've been discussing, but I do know that if you retreat to the last base occupied on a force in ASA, you're automatically out, but in utrip you're not. For instance, runners on first and second, ground ball to the SS. Runner on second takes off on contact, SS comes up and fields the ball in the baseline, runner retreats back to 2b to avoid the tag and not get a double play. In utrip you're fine, in ASA you're out for retreating like that on on a force play.

[Twinkiedakid]

Jim proven wrong? And still arguing his case? Never seen the likes of this before...NOT!

[phatneff]

APPROVED RULING: Since no runner, when the ball is dead, may advance beyond the base to which he is entitled, the runner originally on first base goes to third base and the batter is held at second base.

The ASA ruling and the official baseball ruling is two bases from the time of the throw. The base is the last on you attained at the time of the throw.



This is not true. From the looks of the ruling, the runners advance based on when the ball is DEAD, meaning out of play, and not from when it was thrown, meaning still live.

[jwe]

no, twinkle toes. looks like i partially right for asa rules . usssa must have changed their rule or wording. think somebody listed asa says two bases from the last you touched